Monday, June 05, 2006

Interesting Conversation

I'm posting an excerpt of a recent conversation I had with someone that left the Catholic Church for a more "spirit-filled" experience. There was more conversation before this but I cut and pasted where it started to get interesting.

michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:32:10 PM): I think i should have taken some kind of music business i find myself getting more and more interested in music
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:32:27 PM): i want to open a christian lable
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:32:41 PM): spead the word records......what do you think
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:33:04 PM): I love music, but it's a hobby for me. I play my instrument in the summer and sometimes in church. I also sing in the choir at church.
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:33:13 PM): It's o.k.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:34:04 PM): coo
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:35:00 PM): i think music is so powerful that you can make a difference in many lives if the music is powerful and possitive
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:35:12 PM): it definitely is
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:36:52 PM): so what kind of music do you enjoy
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:37:48 PM): Classical, some Christian, some country, oldies (80's)... a little bit of everything except rap - which I don't consider to be music.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:40:18 PM): lol
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:40:50 PM): i mostly listen to christian i love 80's i listen to a bit of it all i guess depends on my mood
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:41:28 PM): some Christian is o.k. but I like more traditional music like hymns.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:42:06 PM): yeah we play those from time to time
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:43:06 PM): I just don't get into all the contemporary Christian stuff (no offense if that's what you're into). That's one of the reasons I converted to the Catholic Church. I like the solemnity of it.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:43:49 PM): that is cool
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:44:18 PM): i left the catholic church cause of the teachings it still has
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:44:31 PM): old testament type things
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:45:00 PM): That's funny because I joined it for it's teachings.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:46:14 PM): When Jesus died on the cross for us he made the way for us not to have to go to the priest to confess we can go to Jesus who goes to the father on our behalf
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:47:05 PM): i really just see it as we all serve one God why must we all be so divided
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:47:18 PM): I don't want to get into theological discussions. You're right that we can confess directly to Christ, but confession serves a purpose and has it's place. I feel it makes me more accountable.
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:47:43 PM): I agree... but it's the protestant churches that created the division. The Catholic Church is the original church.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:50:25 PM): it is the original church
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:50:45 PM): Do you know how the first pope became the pope
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:51:06 PM): He was appointed by Christ... the first pope was Peter.
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:52:12 PM): I won't say that the Catholic Church has not had it's problems and issues with previous popes and the problems with priests etc... but it has lasted the past 2000 years and has not wavered in its teachings. No other church can say that.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:52:54 PM): i understand that
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:53:10 PM): but the teachings is what gets me
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:53:46 PM): they're all Biblical. You may not like them or agree with them, but nothing is unbiblical.
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:54:46 PM): and it's consistent... too many other churches will say that a passage in the Bible means this when another says it means that... there's no consistency.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:54:56 PM): are they teachings from the old testement
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 2:57:35 PM): some, but not all... the Catholic Church very much believes in the concept of Christ coming and being the new covenant which means you don't have to follow all the old "rules" of the old testament... like not eating pork... if you do, then you're probably Jewish. The Catholic Church relies heavily on the New Testament and it is revered... why do you think the congregation stands when the Gospel is read? The teachings of the Old Testament has it's place, but the teachings of the Catholic Church isn't based on it alone.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 2:59:37 PM): mmmm
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:00:36 PM): Does the catholic church practice the laying on of hands and healings
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:01:08 PM): Not that I'm aware of, but they do believe in miracles that happen.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:01:39 PM): so you would think benny hin was all a crock
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:01:49 PM): Personally, yes.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:03:10 PM): what about the prophets people who come to minister and speak into your life
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:04:15 PM): I wouldn't call them prophets... but I do have those that have been a part of my growth in my faith... what about them?
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:04:47 PM): do think that is real or a crock
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:05:44 PM): I don't think there are prophets today. I believe God works through people, however.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:06:26 PM): Have you ever been baptized in the holy spirit
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:07:40 PM): I was Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the Baptist church when I was nine years old. When I was confirmed in the Catholic Church, I received the gifts of the Holy Spirit as the grace was conferred on me.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:09:23 PM): SO you dont like it when you are in church and the presence of the lord is so thick that people pass out or fall speak in tongues and recieve what is called baptized in the holy spirit when the holy spirit comes apon you .
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:11:05 PM): I don't believe in any of that... no. Speaking in tongues is a gift and if one speaks in a tongue, then there should also be an interpretation of what they are saying. I don't need what others would call a "spirit-filled" church... I find more spirit and holiness in the Catholic Church than in any other I have been to.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:12:40 PM): in the bible he reads that Jesus met with the 12 in something like an upstairs room and that JESUS breathed upon them baptizing them in the holy spirit
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:12:49 PM): yes
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:12:58 PM): and gave them the gift of tongues
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:13:03 PM): so they could understand each other
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:13:16 PM): if someone speaks in a tongue and nobody else understands them... what's the point?
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:13:26 PM): so why is it hard to believe in someone in church receiving the same gift
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:18:42 PM): Baptizing them in the spirit was to give them the grace they needed to spread the word and deal with the hardships along the way It was to speak the truth and live according to Christ's teachings. Speaking in tongues was given so they could go out and talk to others in languages that they weren't familiar with. Somebody babbling in a so-called "tongue" with not interpretation is not a gift.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:25:53 PM): Acts 2 The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost 1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:26:14 PM): I know the passage. It was read this past Sunday.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:26:14 PM): This happen then why no now
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:26:32 PM): Because it isn't necessary now
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:26:39 PM): why not
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:28:08 PM): The purpose of tongues was for UNDERSTANDING each other. If everyone in the room speaks English... there's no need for speaking in tongues. Speaking in some "unknown" language when the spirit comes upon someone is not the gift of tongues. It is babbling.
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:29:09 PM): Look.. we obviously disagree on this matter... nothing you can say or any scripture you can show me will convince me otherwise. I'm certain that I will not convince you of it's absurdity either.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:29:29 PM): in acts every one in that room spoke the same language
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:29:37 PM): but they were doing it
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:29:57 PM): But they were to be sent out as disciples.
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:30:12 PM): and needed the gift to spread the word
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:30:32 PM): aren't we all disciples
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:30:44 PM): shouldn't we all spread the word
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:30:52 PM): So when you speak in tongues, who interprets?
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:31:25 PM): Why do we need tongues to spread the word?
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:31:32 PM): I can do that without it
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:32:11 PM): when we enter in the spirit during praise and some one speaks in tongues there is some with the girt of interpreting the message
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:32:25 PM): Riiighhhttt.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:33:15 PM): I am not here to upset you we just have deifferent views
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:33:27 PM): So why go on about it?
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:33:35 PM): I just said that we're not going to agree.
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:33:52 PM): I believe it's a bunch of hooey.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:33:58 PM): What does the book say about being saved
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:34:18 PM): Oh geez... I'm not ready to get on the whole salvation kick.
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:34:51 PM): That's the major reason I joined the Catholic Church. I did not believe that "once saved, always saved."
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:34:52 PM): lol
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:34:59 PM): Just a quick question
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:42:14 PM): that's not a very quick question
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:42:34 PM): lol
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:42:41 PM): sorry i think i wil drop it
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:43:09 PM): we could go on forever i just find it interesting what other people think
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:43:40 PM): If you want to know what I think, you can read my Catholic blog. It talks about my conversion and several faith issue questions.
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:43:47 PM):
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:44:03 PM): awesome
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:44:08 PM): are you upset at me
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:44:12 PM): not at all
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:44:15 PM): i hope not
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:44:19 PM): ok good
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:44:34 PM): I'm just standing firm in my beliefs... as are you.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:44:52 PM): i am not knocking you i think you should hold true to what you believe
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:45:05 PM): I am, I will and I do.
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:45:24 PM): in the end we are all saved and we will all sing praises in his kingdom
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:46:22 PM): That is true... if we live a life in God's grace and are deemed worthy when our time is up.

Perhaps this summer I'll write a post on my thoughts on salvation.


Greg Long said...

michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:45:24 PM): in the end we are all saved and we will all sing praises in his kingdom
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:46:22 PM): That is true... if we live a life in God's grace and are deemed worthy when our time is up.

Presumption itself is a sin.

Moonshadow said...

michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:26:14 PM): This happen then why no now
coaster_lover_tx (6/5/2006 3:26:32 PM): Because it isn't necessary now
michael alvarez (6/5/2006 3:26:39 PM): why not

Could this be a Baptist carryover?

This idea that certain manifestations of the Spirit (charismata) are no longer necessary?

Cura Animarum said...

I've been 'lurking' on and off here for awhile but this is my first comment here (that I can recall anyway).

I think you held yourself pretty weel and enjoyed reading the conversation. You may have done better in speaking to him about the Catholic theology behind baptism which sees it as a baptism into the three-fold minisrty of Christ as priest, prophet and king.

The Church does still acknowlege prophets alive and well in this day and age. The difficulty with most protestant/Catholic conversations in this area surround underlying definitions. Prophecy for Cathoics is not so much recieeving a 'new word' from God (that Word has been spoken once and for all in Christ) but in calling the People of God to task in how they are living out (or failing to) their faith. Even in the OT, the prohpets were largely the social critics of the day. "you've lost your way", "You've grown blind", "Return to God", those are the words of the prophets both in Scripture, and in our world today. If we think of our own lives, I'm sure there have been many encounters with those who have filled this prophetic role for us, and there may even be times when we answer that call for the benefit of others too.

I like how you spoke about the gift of tongues. So many people pull out that passage of acts without referencing the whole passage which clearly points out that they were spekaing actual languages

Parthians, Medes, Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—in our own languages we hear them speaking about God’s deeds of power.’

For the expressed purpose of sharing the Good News...not just for the personal benefit, so that a selct individual can have a 'God Expereince'. Again, in this light, every time the Good News is brought to people where they are at, and spoken in a language they can understand, we can be assured that this same Spirit is still at work among us. In the same way.